How Menopause Affects Highly Sensitive Women with Michele Jenkins, MSW

Are you a highly sensitive woman going through perimenopause? In this episode, two HSP psychotherapists, (who are themselves navigating the menopausal transition), discuss the shortcomings of the medical system, the importance of healing past traumas and losses, developing agency, and the journey towards self-discovery and joy.

In this conversation, Esther Kane, MSW and Michele Jenkins, MSW, discuss the emotional and psychological challenges women face during perimenopause. They emphasize the importance of acknowledging grief, embracing transformation, and developing agency over one's health.

Michele shares the TIDES framework she developed, which encourages women to tune into themselves, identify their needs, develop self-compassion, engage in self-advocacy, and slow down for self-discovery.

Esther and Michele also highlight the significance of community support and the need for women to prioritize their well-being during this transitional phase of life.

Episode Contents

00:00:00  Navigating Perimenopause: A Shared Journey
00:03:14  The Impact of Sensitivity on Mental Health
00:06:08  The Medical System's Shortcomings
00:09:03  The Role of Trauma in Perimenopause
00:11:54  Finding Agency and Healing
00:14:57  The Emotional Toll of Loss
00:17:53  Somatic Healing and Self-Discovery
00:21:12  Transformative Nature of Perimenopause
00:24:04  Embracing Joy and Relaxation
00:26:57  Personal Stories of Struggle and Resilience
00:34:57  Navigating Grief and Loss
00:37:40  Understanding Perimenopause and Its Impact
00:39:33  Embracing Transformation and Grieving the Past
00:41:23  The Importance of Agency in Women's Health
00:44:43  TIDES: A Framework for Self-Care
00:55:02  Developing Self-Compassion and Care
01:01:43  Engaging in Self-Advocacy and Creating a Plan
01:07:47  Slowing Down for Self-Discovery

Show notes:

Other Menopause episode mentioned:

Menopause Myths Debunked: Susan Willson on Trauma, Healing, and Empowerment

https://www.buzzsprout.com/2022477/episodes/15750303

Where to find Michele:

Michele Jenkins, LCSW
https://www.michelejhsptherapy.com
Instagram: @hspperimenopausetherapy

FREE resources: 

To learn more about the Highly Sensitive Personality: 

https://www.estherkane.com/highly-sensitive-people/ 

For Esther’s blog posts, videos and podcasts on Highly Sensitive People: 

https://www.estherkane.com/category/highly-sensitive-personality-introversion/ 

To receive Esther's FREE report designed to help HSPs create better boundaries called, "10 Tips for Getting Rid of Relationships That Drain Your Energy": 

https://www.estherkane.com/#newsletter 

Please don’t forget to subscribe to this channel, give it a great review if you enjoyed it and pass episodes onto others who could also benefit from them.

Links

www.estherkane.com

Instagram:

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Esther Kane, MSW, RCC

Transcript

Host: Esther Kane (00:00)

Michelle Jenkins is a licensed clinical social worker in New Jersey who specializes in highly sensitive people, particularly women navigating the challenges of perimenopause. As a highly sensitive person herself and currently in perimenopause, she has both personal and professional experience to offer the women she works with.

Michelle's mission is to help women to achieve agency over their own bodies and to embrace their perimenopausal journey with confidence. Hello, Michelle.

Michele (00:34)

Hi, thanks for having me.

Host: Esther Kane (00:36)

I just have to tell you how many things we have in common. we are roughly the same age. I'm 53, you're 50. the fierce fifties. we have the same training and frontline experience as social workers. we have the same degrees.

Michele (00:46)

Mm

Host: Esther Kane (00:55)

we are both HSPs as well as psychotherapists, and we both specialize in empowering HSP clients, mostly women, to embrace their sensitivity and to thrive. I just couldn't believe it. just to give you a sense of why I knew I had to have you on the show,

Michele (01:08)

Mm

Host: Esther Kane (01:15)

for those watching  or listening to this , we didn't really plan anything major. We just of have some topics.

Michele (01:23)

We have a lot of the same experiences and feelings about this. so it was easy, I think, for both of us to just flow into with this.

Host: Esther Kane (01:33)

being HSPs, this is going to be stream of consciousness. This is how we work.

Michele (01:37)

Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Host: Esther Kane (01:40)

we've had our own stories I thought it might be good to start there. you want me to kick it off? Okay, I'm 53 now and as of February 1st,

Michele (01:46)

Mm

Yeah, kick it off.

Host: Esther Kane (01:57)

2024. I had one year with no period, so I was officially in menopause. thank God. Yes, I'm here. I traversed the waters. I crossed to the other side. My journey was incredibly traumatic and distressing. it started at 45, I remember.

Michele (02:06)

you

Host: Esther Kane (02:21)

So that's seven years, pretty average. mostly just felt like depression. I was crying a lot. my husband and I decided to,

Move from one town to another on the same island. We Sold four properties to buy one We each had our own office and we had two living accommodations one in the city we live in now and then one

where we lived before, smaller area. And there was a lot of stress with that. And then when we moved into the house we live in now, it's from 1912. It's a very old house. It didn't have any insulation or it had nob and tube wiring that could have exploded. we had

contractors living on the property in a motor home for three months I ended up with some bladder thing and Going to emergency because it was all stress and I didn't know I was in perimenopause either and I my energy being an HSP on top of

So when I was 28, I was officially diagnosed, with an anxiety disorder, generalized anxiety disorder. Now I know I'm a highly sensitive person. I don't believe I have an anxiety disorder. I don't believe I ever did. I don't believe that many HSPs have mental illness.

as they call it. I don't like the term mental illness. Mental health I like, but not mental illness. I'd been on antidepressants since I was 28, And they didn't seem to be working the way that I thought they should. so I panicked.

I thought, my God, what's wrong with me? I was waking up teary and crying. so I looked up, what does perimenopause look like and depression, anxiety, blah, blah. I got scared from reading. I call it Google chondria. Yes. I used Google to diagnose me

Michele (04:28)

That's a So look it up.

Mm -hmm.

Host: Esther Kane (04:36)

I find that the health profession is at the ready to do that as well. So I went to my doctor. They didn't know what was happening. They said they could put me on more antidepressants, to which I said no. then someone said, there's this naturopath you can take bioidentical hormones. They're natural, and they'll help you.

I literally, talked to a naturopath on the phone about 15 minutes and she said, your progesterone is tanked. but she hadn't even seen me. We've got to put you on progesterone. She very confident woman. I was not feeling confident. I was down in a bad place. So I went in, she put me on progesterone and I had three and a half years of

Severe depression I have never been depressed in my life No blood work. so long story short I ended up in the hospital As it it got so bad and when they found out I was on progesterone they

Michele (05:24)

Mm -hmm.

where it cast her? No.

you

Host: Esther Kane (05:40)

Freaked out two psychiatrists. who saw me said that causes suicidal depression for women Well, I never heard that so they asked me If I had any they confiscated they were so horrified that they they wanted it

to confiscate it.

Michele (05:58)

did she have reasoning to be leaving out the other important hormones for perimenopause, the estrogen and the testosterone? There was no explanation it sounds like for you. Yeah.

Host: Esther Kane (06:07)

I no explain, no, she was very confident. This is what you need. And so during that three and a half years, my antidepressant, I tried to, they weren't working. So during three and a half years, I saw a psychiatrist for that, at least three of those years. And that was another hell. She put me on, she put me on a whole bunch of,

Michele (06:20)

Mm.

Host: Esther Kane (06:34)

She tried me on, I think three or four different antidepressants at varying doses. And if it didn't work, she put the dose up. I was on the highest dose of things. I don't remember a lot of things from that time. It was horrible. And I was working full time as a therapist and it was just the worst. But nobody along the way asked if...

Michele (06:38)

Mm

wow.

Host: Esther Kane (07:02)

You know, looked into, so the psychiatrist in three and a half years that I've seen her at least three years, never asked me, are you on something else? Are you out taking any other medication? Not once. So now I'm really pissed off when I think back to that, because if she had known that I was on progesterone, we could have avoided this calamity.

Michele (07:20)

Yes.

Host: Esther Kane (07:30)

length of suffering that I went through was horrific. so that I don't even consider that perimenopausal symptoms or anything that was up and down from different medications. then she was giving me benzos for anxiety. those are highly addictive and very hard on the brain and body.

Michele (07:53)

Hmm.

Host: Esther Kane (07:53)

I just felt like it was like candy and she just kept throwing, it's like throwing spaghetti at the wall. Well, maybe I'd have to have a nap for two hours a day. I could work throughout the day, but the rest of the time I was crying and in bed.

and I had another severe bout of depression, four years after the first one. I'm still recovering from that one. And now I'm, just on the other side of menopause. Thank God I've made it.

Michele (08:17)

Mm.

Well, my heart is breaking for you in that it feels like you're a real testament to the failings and limitations of our medical system and the ways in which the knowledge base of menopause and perimenopause for our medical professionals, which I think is changing.

Host: Esther Kane (08:35)

Yeah.

Michele (08:46)

if you were 45, 46, we weren't hearing much about perimenopause at all.

Host: Esther Kane (08:46)

Yes.

Michele (08:54)

To have gone through that because of that limited fund of knowledge from the professionals just is really hard to hear. And I'm just so sorry.

Host: Esther Kane (09:04)

Yeah, Well, thank you. I'm healing now. it has been quite a journey. I think so much of what happened to me could have been prevented. it's just infuriating. I mean, my husband and I, he's livid. You know, when he found out that

Michele (09:21)

Mm

Host: Esther Kane (09:24)

I shouldn't have been on protection that causes suicidal depression. I I've never been suicidal before. I've never been depressed before. You know, and I guess one of my messages to women that are listening to this or watching it is be very careful. There's a lot of people who have a lot of money they can make off of people that have hit bottom and are not feeling good and are willing

Michele (09:32)

I see.

Host: Esther Kane (09:52)

to do anything to feel better. I was one of those people. was at rock bottom and you become very vulnerable to those things. So I know we're going to talk a lot about agency, but my journey now, I've made it to the other side. I'm menopausal. It's fabulous. I have an extra, five to seven pounds. I read that that's average. It's the belly and the boobs.

Michele (10:04)

Mm

Mm Mm -hmm.

Host: Esther Kane (10:18)

what I've heard is that that is that when you're switching, the estrogen is changing up and everything's going from your ovaries to the adrenals. that the breasts and the belly hold the estradiol, which is the one you have when you're in your childbearing years. It's holding whatever you left of that in your fat cells.

Michele (10:38)

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Yeah, we need it.

Host: Esther Kane (10:44)

And I've heard that it's to prevent you from getting breast cancer and ovarian cancer. I will take five to seven pounds. Thank you very much. Just a little uncomfortable because I'm five foot one and a half and my clothes don't fit me the way they did.

Michele (10:49)

Mm -hmm.

Yes. Yeah.

We also have that in common Esther. So am I. Yes, I'm 5 '1". Yes. So the weight gain is so noticeable and that was hard.

Host: Esther Kane (11:02)

really? Really? Yeah. What? You're a little lady? Really? I had no idea you're a little lady. Wow.

Right. Yeah. the other thing that happened during this.

One of my best friends got brain cancer and died. So, yeah, she was 49 and she'd just gone through menopause herself and...

Michele (11:26)

my goodness.

Host: Esther Kane (11:37)

And I was worried sick about her and I was trying to do everything I could. yeah, was just all, yeah, was glioblastoma, it's the worst kind of.

Michele (11:48)

Yeah, yeah. you know, I think that, I mean, I also, I lost a sister to that horrible disease, but I similarly, but also I had a very dear friend at who she was 53 died of a brain tumor. So what I think, what I want to say is

that when we ourselves are going through such profound emotional, mental and physical symptoms of perimenopause and whether we know it or not or have support or not yet, it's the things happening externally in our lives that are layering on top of that. And I think that a lot of women feel like they're going crazy.

Host: Esther Kane (12:28)

Yes.

Michele (12:33)

Think of having a friend ill and trying to support that friend while you yourself are struggling and the grief that that brought up for you. And I wouldn't venture to guess you have many other losses you've experienced throughout your life. Those come creeping back up. they come out like a pot of boiling water.

Host: Esther Kane (12:53)

Yeah, yeah, I just have to say that if you have any emotional unfinished business is what I call it, past trauma that you have not resolved, this is the time it's going to come up. since my last

Michele (13:01)

Mm

Host: Esther Kane (13:11)

severe depression. been about eight months that I've been solidly recovered. Since I started this healing journey I did trauma therapy once a week for seven months, I've been a therapist 27 years. I have done

Michele (13:18)

Mm -hmm.

Mm

Host: Esther Kane (13:34)

intensive trauma training. I've done trauma work with clients. and I really thought I had dealt with my trauma. No, no, not even close. This is ancestral trauma about the Holocaust and my people

Michele (13:38)

Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm. Yeah. Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Host: Esther Kane (13:57)

who were killed and childhood stuff, developmental trauma. realized that I had lived in my head before that. my survival was living in my head. I kind of lived from the neck up. And I think I think this is important to share with women because I think so many of us do that. We get disembodied. We don't

Michele (14:10)

Yeah. Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Host: Esther Kane (14:22)

We somehow get caught off from our bodies I'd always done top down therapy, Which is talking therapy that most of us do. And social workers, we get trained, it's all cognitive. now I'm doing bottom up somatic experiencing is what I'm working with someone with somatic experiencing. She's not even a psychotherapist. She's a physiotherapist. The best.

Michele (14:25)

Mm

Right. Mm -hmm. Yes. Yep.

Yes.

Okay.

Host: Esther Kane (14:45)

therapist I've ever met in my life,

Michele (14:47)

Mm -hmm.

Sure. Well, because somatic is really where it's at when we're talking about what we're experiencing

Host: Esther Kane (14:52)

He did.

it's Coming out of my body. It's I don't even know Then this is hard for me being I'm very structured and This is very unstructured I never know what's gonna come up when I see her this was every week. I was just showing up and things just

Michele (14:59)

Okay.

Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Host: Esther Kane (15:18)

came out of my body I had no idea that that was in there. But I can honestly say now that I truly, love myself deeply and that I have befriended myself and that little girl that was carrying the weight

Michele (15:22)

Mm -hmm.

No. Yeah.

Mm -hmm.

Host: Esther Kane (15:41)

for so long of her ancestors before her and her parents and the culture, there's so many layers, right? you can't manage it with your mind. I became a therapist because I learned that the way I could survive

Michele (15:43)

Mm

Right.

Host: Esther Kane (16:01)

my situation was to study it. If I could understand, then I could, make it. But that only gets you so far.

Michele (16:04)

Mm

care of it, right? Mm -hmm, mm -hmm. Yes. I think what you're saying our ancestral trauma especially, but also early trauma can, depending on the severity of it, gets buried in our unconscious after a while because our bodies want to survive,

So we're moving forward in life and if everything's kind of going with an equilibrium, it's gonna stay in the unconscious. Perimenopause is such a huge transformation in our life, similar to if we have given birth and we become a parent or when we went through puberty and birth. It's a transformation of ourselves.

Host: Esther Kane (16:39)

Mm

Michele (16:54)

the unconscious starts to move up to the subconscious, whatever's happening with our estrogen, lowering and fluctuating those feelings and emotions and those unconscious traumas get shaken up and rattled. then we start to feel them because we can't push them down anymore.

Host: Esther Kane (17:12)

Yeah. I felt like, if you look at it as being a vessel, that, I was surviving at three quarters full, but then when perimenopause happened, it just started to overflow. I couldn't stop it.

Michele (17:18)

Mm

Mm

because that's what trauma and unconscious stuff, once it starts to come up, it has to at some point and it will. So there's no stopping it.

Host: Esther Kane (17:29)

No, been.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't want women listening to this to be afraid. I just want to tell everybody that I am so relieved like where I sit now at 53, having gone through menopause having worked on the trauma,

Michele (17:44)

Hmm.

-hmm.

Host: Esther Kane (17:57)

I feel like this huge weight has been lifted off of me. what I didn't realize before Michelle that I think is so important is that when you're holding onto trauma, you can't enjoy your life. I was very cerebral. I thought I had this great life. had, know, career, blah, blah, But,

I wasn't able to really go into joy, pleasure and relaxation. I've said this before on the show that I heard this affirmation that stopped me dead in my tracks. It was joy is my birthright. And I've been studying that and using that for months now, just that joy is my birthright.

Michele (18:26)

Mm -hmm.

Hmm. Mm -hmm.

Mm

Host: Esther Kane (18:47)

What the hell is joy? No one told me I missed the memo on joy and relaxation and pleasure.

Michele (18:48)

Right. Yes. Yes.

is what we really need to be thinking about, I think, as well when we're talking about this stage of life, because we won't even know it. But it's constantly in a sympathetic state versus parasympathetic if we're feeling disjointed and stuff's coming up.

Host: Esther Kane (19:13)

Yeah.

Yeah, I just want to say to women that you can watch or listen to another episode I did. I interviewed a woman named Susan Wilson who wrote a book called Making Sense of Menopause, the only one I recommend besides Christian Northrup, The Wisdom of Menopause.

we were talking about the spiritual side of menopause and that it's a transformation, a metamorphosis actually. If you look at it in spiritual light. that's how I want to go from here on in looking back at how much I suffered it's very disheartening. But if

Michele (19:47)

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Host: Esther Kane (20:01)

I had some wise woman, some wise elder back then who could have told me that, this is all meant to be, what's happening to you. You're a caterpillar, but you're going to have wings someday. They explained the process to me.

Michele (20:12)

Mm -hmm.

Host: Esther Kane (20:15)

Where are these women that can tell you about the journey and what it's going to be like and what it looks like on the other side? my God, happy dance. It's fantastic. Guess what?

Michele (20:16)

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Right.

Right, right. I certainly was never, you

if you're anywhere between 40 and up that if you're starting to all of a sudden get hit out of nowhere with emotional symptoms that you haven't experienced in a while or before,

The hope is that you kind of think to yourself, I wonder if I should go to a hormone specialist or a doctor and see if this could be because of that. there are treatments that can help make it easier. Because your story, Esther, is...

Host: Esther Kane (20:58)

Hmm.

Michele (21:01)

I don't think of it as scary. I think of it as heart wrenching because you suffered. And we're not gonna be exempt from suffering a little bit through this process. Most people, most women. And life, right? Because it's life, But as little suffering as possible would be really helpful.

Host: Esther Kane (21:13)

Yeah.

Well, life, joy and sorrow, joy, yeah.

That'd be nice. I could order it off the menu, if I could have gone back, I would have ordered less suffering.

Michele (21:27)

You

I'm sure. my story is that at 47, I literally felt like I just got hit by a ton of bricks, physically, emotionally and mentally. I have struggled with some low grade depression and anxiety mostly after having

Host: Esther Kane (21:32)

No hard stuff.

Michele (21:49)

a child, which I think was a little postpartum mixed in there. But now I understand that I am a highly sensitive person. the low grade depression was probably coming more from overstimulation and deep processing and not feeling like I could find people who were similar to me. a sense of loneliness or isolation around that. other than

taking an antidepressant a small dose for many, years, I was moving along okay, emotionally, physically, was really health conscious. I did have some later in life trauma. my sister passed away when I was 36. she had...

Host: Esther Kane (22:29)

you.

Michele (22:32)

a two -year -old and a six -year -old And I had a six -month -old and a two -year -old at the time. it was also during the downturn of the economy She died in March 2009. around 2008, I gave birth and we hit that horrible time here in the States with the economy. my husband and I suffered.

a loss of his job and we were living far away from my sister and her family. we wanted to help them and be near them. so we ended up having to short sale our house. we lost our first home and all the equity So it was a long process of grieving and saying goodbye

She was first diagnosed with a stage three and that was after her first child when he was only a few months old. she was able to go into a sort of remission and that's when she had her second child and then it came back as a stage four glioblastoma not long after, eight months after her second, her daughter. It was terrible.

Host: Esther Kane (23:25)

it says.

Michele (23:30)

As a therapist and as a human, now have experienced firsthand and know that there are so many ripple effects from death, especially if it's an unnatural death in that it's not in the right time scheme we would think of. it was just so much upheaval with family members, and losses

Host: Esther Kane (23:38)

Yeah.

Right,

Michele (23:50)

and conflict. it was years of that. then my husband and I trying to figure out we were so involved with her family, we had to now really start to root and nurture our family. And we were doing that financially.

we were literally building back up and I went into a full survival over functioning mode. it was very important to me that I wasn't, projecting my grief and stuff onto my children because they are innocent, little vessels of joy and love and I just wanted them to grow up.

Host: Esther Kane (24:08)

you

Yeah.

Yeah.

Michele (24:25)

free from the heaviness of what had happened, if possible. But that's not really possible.

Host: Esther Kane (24:29)

But that's impossible.

Michele (24:31)

So guess where all that goes, I'm holding it. It's trapped inside of me. And although I had done therapy, because I firmly believe therapists have to do therapy, whenever and anytime they can.

Host: Esther Kane (24:33)

Yeah. Internally.

Yeah.

I

Michele (24:43)

it was talk therapy. It was top -down therapy for sure. I knew nothing about, somatic. I wasn't even fully conscious that I was, experienced trauma.

I was experiencing trauma and shoving it down. fast forward my forties, I was raising my kids and I'm in this like type A area of New Jersey. everyone's kind of like at top speed here and I was trying to keep up,

then all of a sudden it was like 47 and boom, the physical was a great deal of body pain, horrible, joint pain, full body pain. I now know that is called arthralgia. estrogen and progesterone and testosterone play a huge role in tendons and ligaments and all that.

I have been diagnosed with tendinopathy of my hamstrings and my glutes and that's common, but I didn't know that at the time. I all of a sudden had chronic pain. I had horrible clenching of my teeth. I cracked two teeth and had to get new teeth. I'm still struggling with TMJ today. I should note that I am still in the thick of perimenopause. I have not yet reached.

12 months without a period. So I'll go four months, six months, then it will start again. then I'm starting over and that is a tough place to be But it helps me to empathize and understand. the physical, the weight gain was unbelievable. It was an immediate 15 pounds. then I've always been a weightlifter So I went into overdrive with that.

Host: Esther Kane (26:13)

Mm -hmm.

Michele (26:18)

only to gain another 15 plus. So doing the activities, watching what I ate, I actually gained more weight. Nothing works. I still don't know exactly how this is all gonna pan out, even though I have not given up despite a lot of bodily pain. I went to doctor after doctor after doctor, but what was as a therapist, really

Host: Esther Kane (26:23)

Yeah, nothing works. know. Nothing works. Yeah.

Michele (26:42)

shocking me even more was the emotional piece. All of a sudden, I was very, very anxious. I was worried about everything going on with my kids. everyone around me dying. I was going into this existential place where I'm thinking about death and what's the point? we're all gonna die and we're almost there and everything's gonna result in a loss.

very very negative

Host: Esther Kane (27:06)

want to say, I want to interject, Michelle, when you've had a loss like that, when the person dies, quickly at a young age, has a young family, it's your sister, it makes perfect emotional sense what you were feeling and how

Michele (27:11)

Mm -hmm.

Mm

it helps to hear that because it's like the other shoe dropping, when is that gonna happen? If it's gonna happen, And then the depression, was, like all of a sudden feeling very low motivation and tired and slowing down and,

Host: Esther Kane (27:28)

Yeah, yeah, what it be like to,

Michele (27:41)

then with these dark thoughts and all that coming in, it just feels like, I going crazy? is this it?

Host: Esther Kane (27:49)

Then am I going... Well, Susan Wilson in the interview I did with her, said that they used to lock women up when they were going through menopause. It wasn't talked about, but they just kind of went crazy. that was just what expected, but they didn't want to burden society with these women. So they hid them away, locked them up. draconian.

Michele (27:57)

Mm

-hmm.

Right, right.

And you know what, we're I think we're locking ourselves up. how far have we really come? I hear more people getting together with their friends and talking about this,

Host: Esther Kane (28:10)

I know. come?

Michele (28:18)

we're really not comfortable with burdening the world with our symptoms. I will just walk around. I'm saying it to neighbors, clients, I'm in perimenopause. So that's why I'm forgetting words.

Host: Esther Kane (28:27)

Yeah.

Yeah. It's internalized. highly sensitive women, We internalize. we don't act out aggressively, even though there is a lot of rage. I don't know about you, but my

Michele (28:32)

We have to because that shame is not helping us.

Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm. A little bit anger. Mm -hmm. Rage.

Host: Esther Kane (28:48)

It's not like I'm a little bit angry or irritated. No, it's full blown, that can seem scary if you've never experienced that before.

Michele (28:51)

Mm -mm.

Absolutely. it's helpful to know that that's actually normal for us to feel our biology's causing those feelings and they're deep.

Host: Esther Kane (29:06)

Yeah.

I We have to find ways to handle our emotions, but we also need to know that this is normal. It's a phase and it's not going to be like this forever. We're in transition.

Michele (29:11)

Yes.

Mm -hmm.

Host: Esther Kane (29:21)

we're going through a metamorphosis. are like a caterpillar. We're going to become this beautiful butterflyer.

Michele (29:23)

Mm -hmm.

I'm finding that we are grieving pretty much throughout this because of the fact that it's a transformation. Yeah, we have to grieve what's behind us. what we've lost, but we also have to grieve the person that we are leaving behind.

Host: Esther Kane (29:31)

Yes.

One big brief, yes, That we were. Yeah,

The woman that I'm becoming now and Fierce. People are, are actually scared of me. I'm this tiny, but I scare them. It's the energy. It's very intense.

Michele (29:46)

Yes. Yeah.

Mm -hmm. Well, I don't think we're afraid to say much. I I've heard this from women older than me, and I always thought, that's something to look forward to, to not care so much about what we do say. But I'm here and I love it.

Host: Esther Kane (29:58)

yeah, no, I'll

my God, you know.

Michele (30:08)

And be okay with asserting that, the one that we held back and hid for so long and allowed ourselves to be passive, it's okay to assert that. that was part of at 47, 48 and 49, where I was dealing with all these symptoms, and going to so many doctors.

Host: Esther Kane (30:15)

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Michele (30:29)

not one practitioner mentioned the word menopause until I went to my gynecologist, through 47, 48, 49. It wasn't until I went to her

and started talking about the symptoms of 47. It wasn't until age 49 that my gynecologist said, could be perimenopause. It was you're too young to be going through it at 47 and 48.

Host: Esther Kane (30:50)

I see here

Michele (30:51)

not to knock my gynecologist, but just there was no guidance. And now I understand that they're not really trained heavily in menopause.

Host: Esther Kane (30:52)

Yeah.

Thank

A

Michele (31:02)

I think what you and I are talking about, which is the more therapeutic approach of helping women to understand things from a psychological viewpoint mixed in with some of that medical important expertise how to turn inward and help themselves. Agency, yes. Yeah, yeah.

Host: Esther Kane (31:16)

Yeah, no.

Right. To have agency. Let's talk about agency, Michelle, because let me read you. Bessel van der Koek, his definition of agency. He wrote The Body Keeps the Score, if anyone's interested. It's a great book.

Michele (31:28)

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Yeah.

Host: Esther Kane (31:35)

agency starts with interoception, which is our awareness of our subtle sensory body based feelings. The greater that awareness, the greater our potential to control our lives. If you have a comfortable connection with your inner sensations, if you can trust them to give you accurate information, you will feel in charge of your body, your feelings and yourself.

when we think of women and the feminist movement, has always been about agency. The personal is the political. when women have agency over their own bodies and feel in control, they are empowered. They have less health issues, less mental health issues.

Michele (32:09)

Mm

Host: Esther Kane (32:19)

I think the worst part for me, was the lack of agency and how I felt completely at the mercy of the medical system, especially when I was in hospital and in terrible condition. That was so awful. to be, just...

Michele (32:28)

Mm

Host: Esther Kane (32:36)

treated as a body and as a mental illness. to feel disembodied. you combine that with a major trauma history. How embodied are you to feel? You have to be in your body to have agency. What do you think of

Michele (32:42)

Mm -hmm.

Thank you.

Right. absolutely. think that women feel very, dissociated,

Host: Esther Kane (32:59)

Like watching yourself from above, Yeah, yeah, that's how I felt.

Michele (33:01)

yeah, absolutely. And tuning in too much to external opinions and voices. it's very easy when you have an onslaught of symptoms, emotional, mental, physical, that come along with this. you start to search for answers. So you start to ask people,

Host: Esther Kane (33:18)

Well, or you're desperate. and you're in high need of solutions. Your suffering is very intense.

Michele (33:25)

Right, but

Host: Esther Kane (33:27)

I know you have this wonderful acronym you came up with called TIDES. think now would be the perfect time for you to talk about

Michele (33:30)

Yes.

tides I thought was just really helpful because, the tides go in and out. They're stronger at times, they're weaker at times, they move in and out and they're fluid. And they are indicative of change happening in the oceans and the sand

And to me, that's sort of what's happening too. we have to be a little bit flexible and know that the tides are gonna change. Rigidity is not helpful at this time in life. So my acronym, TIDES is tuning into yourself, identifying your needs, develop self -compassion and care, engage in self -advocacy and slow down.

Host: Esther Kane (34:01)

No, not at all.

Hmm.

Michele (34:18)

should we take each one and kind of pick it apart a little bit?

Host: Esther Kane (34:20)

I why don't we have a working example? Do you want to talk about yourself and what was useful or what I could have done? Or we could say a client or what?

Michele (34:27)

Yeah.

Yeah, I want to say like these are not linear. I want these things to be present in a woman's mind when she's going through this. tuning into yourself. what I'd like people to do is pause and really listen to your inner world and recognize what you truly feel and truly need.

Host: Esther Kane (34:37)

right here.

Yes.

Michele (34:45)

an example for me of where I wish I had done that is, shortly after I started to hit every doctor to try to figure out every different symptom, I would then go on Instagram and the algorithm was sending me things on weight and then sending me things on nutrition and it's sending me things on body pain

and I was kind of listening and it's all external.

Host: Esther Kane (35:05)

Yeah, yeah. And it's all external, right? It's not. you're highly influenced by the external.

Michele (35:12)

absolutely. going down a rabbit hole that wasn't going to be helpful for me because I wasn't really looking inward and saying, what do I know about myself? we grew up in our bodies. I went back to remember myself at age 13 and age 17. what would happen then when I was feeling out of control of my body? what did I have to do to pull back?

Host: Esther Kane (35:21)

Yeah, right.

we've been through this before. We've been through puberty.

Michele (35:34)

Exactly. so that tuning in, what I know about myself, for example, is that I respond really well to weight training. I don't respond as well to functional training. this is just an example, you know, it sounds a little trivial,

Host: Esther Kane (35:47)

No, each give an example. that each of us, okay. So keep going.

Michele (35:51)

Yeah, please. that kind of takes you to the next couple of steps versus identifying your needs and developing a plan, engage in self -advocacy. once you tune into yourself, like I'm tuning out all that other noise. I'm going to pursue right now, what I know might

be something that will help my body respond and keep me in the least amount of pain then I can follow that track this is why the tides is important because you might have to pivot. if I go and I do that and then something else is kind of off, instead of giving up, it might be that I have to shift a little bit. to dial back.

or I go back in and tune and maybe I need to just walk for a week before I do that or do that half a day,

Host: Esther Kane (36:40)

Great. Yeah, yeah.

with exercise, for example, I think that we just think we're going to go full on, head first, for the rest of our lives. But the body changes.

Michele (36:51)

what about you with a tuning in example?

Host: Esther Kane (36:54)

if I had tuned in and I was trying to remember myself as a younger person, I would have focused on my strengths, reminded myself that I'm tough as nails. I have been through so much and come out the other side

Michele (36:59)

Mm -hmm.

Host: Esther Kane (37:11)

just how resilient I am and that I never give up. I'm stubborn as hell and that I'm going to get through this. I know I've got my back and that we're going to get through this, even if I don't know what that's going to look like or how. And again, listening to the body. So I've done

Michele (37:13)

Mm

Yeah.

I love that.

Mm -hmm.

Host: Esther Kane (37:31)

Hot yoga used to be called Bikram yoga. I've done that for over something years and I used to go three to four times a week. It's 90 minutes and I think it's 106 degrees Fahrenheit in the room. And I still do it now, but I don't push myself as hard anymore. And I see all the young ones. It makes me smile because they haven't hit the perimenopause And they're just

Michele (37:33)

Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

here.

Host: Esther Kane (37:57)

given it their all. I think you can't keep that up sister. this is going to change. I really enjoy lying down in the middle of a pose or just not giving it my all and being okay with that. for me, it's dropping perfectionism.

Michele (37:59)

Yeah.

Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

we need to discern what our body and mind and spirit respond well to and need and desire. and that will help you take meaningful steps, towards something that is better for you. my example for this is I, as an HSP realized

Host: Esther Kane (38:17)

Yeah.

Michele (38:26)

I absolutely need to have slow mornings. It was a non -negotiable. I'm lucky enough that my kids are now in high school and I don't have to do the morning rush because they can get themselves going. But there was still some shame around the fact that I sometimes need to still be sleeping, when they're getting on the bus. I need to wake up slowly and

Host: Esther Kane (38:29)

yeah. Totally.

Yeah.

Michele (38:53)

really process the upcoming day before I propel into it. my husband's very helpful with this, I try not to use an alarm, to have a very natural rhythm. I have my coffee sitting and contemplating and relaxing.

Host: Esther Kane (38:56)

Thanks.

Michele (39:06)

then I let my energy guide me from there.

it takes a lot for my energy levels to come up to a functional level. I can do this and I feel better and calm my nervous system better.

Host: Esther Kane (39:12)

Yeah.

when I think of what I need, the eye of tides, I to meditate after my work day. I need it to be a dark, very quiet room. My eyes covered, my legs up the wall usually. I listen to a meditation from Insight Timer

Michele (39:30)

and

Host: Esther Kane (39:33)

and I focus on my breathing. I'm trying to get much more into breathing more calmly. I do that for 20 minutes to half an hour a day. That's just, it's sort of the transition. I too have to wake up very slowly.

Michele (39:35)

Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

and

Host: Esther Kane (39:52)

Ideally I exercise, a sauna do all of that before I go to work and check texts or emails It takes me two and a half to three hours to wake up, just like you.

Michele (39:55)

Hmm.

Yeah. a lot of women feel a lot of pressure to produce and grab the day,

Host: Esther Kane (40:06)

Yeah, being, human doing, not a human being.

Michele (40:10)

I don't know if everyone's going to resonate with our examples of what we need, but there might be some women out there that are that's totally what I need, but they're denying it, for themselves in some way.

Host: Esther Kane (40:14)

Right.

Right. Well, maybe they don't have the luxury of two and after three hours on their own, But what can you do? So for example, if you're a highly sensitive person, you probably need time alone every day, And if you're not getting that, your body's going to be screaming at you in some other way. So how can you carve out that time alone, even if it's 15 to 20 minutes a day? how can you make something?

Michele (40:24)

Well, that's true.

right.

Yes.

Host: Esther Kane (40:45)

just for you, just luxurious. that re -energizes you, that fills your cup. That nourishes your soul, your body, your spirit.

Michele (40:46)

Yeah,

Mm -hmm. Yeah. Mm Right. And that has to be non -negotiable. make sure that you have an agreement to yourself and keep that agreement. that 15 minutes is just quiet, calm. it could be in the shower, I find sometimes that can be, a place to do a few minutes extra.

Host: Esther Kane (41:09)

Yeah, yeah.

Michele (41:09)

you know, behind locked doors.

Host: Esther Kane (41:13)

So what's the D?

Michele (41:14)

develop self -compassion and care. we're lacking so much self -compassion. I hear so many people so hard on themselves.

Host: Esther Kane (41:18)

-care. Yeah. Terrible.

Do know what I have to literally say to clients, say, I'm going to stop you right there because I don't let anybody use anybody else in this room. And that includes you abusing you. Terrible what people say to themselves.

Michele (41:29)

Mmm.

Yeah, I love that.

Yeah, themselves. Yeah, and noticing your inner voice and how do you talk to yourself? I tell people, I'll stop them and I'll say, wait a second. If you had your best friend or your daughter or your sister sitting next to you right now and they were saying what you're saying, what would you say to them? usually people will be much kinder.

Host: Esther Kane (41:49)

Yeah.

Michele (41:58)

to a friend, then we will be to ourselves. We're very self -critical, have that strong negativity bias about ourselves. however you can practice, this speaks to how our neural pathways respond well to patterns and repeated, little tactics and skills where we

Host: Esther Kane (42:01)

Yeah.

Michele (42:15)

have to start practicing turning around some of the negative junk we say to ourselves. I've gotten really good at it. I can honestly say this, at 50, I can be quite hard on myself.

Host: Esther Kane (42:21)

Yeah.

Pamela. it's an old groove. We're probably always going to go back into those grooves, those loops in our mind, but we can do something.

Michele (42:29)

Mm -hmm.

Right, right, right. Those negative core beliefs that we actually believe, like I'm not worthy, I'm not smart enough, like an instant proverbial, smack, that, wow, that was quite cruel. that's uncalled for. that's not good.

Host: Esther Kane (42:48)

I have a trick for this, it's, self -compaction. there's been a lot of research on the polyvagal nerve system our social engagement system. it's always looking for safety.

Michele (42:55)

Mm -hmm.

Host: Esther Kane (43:00)

Am I safe? Am I going to get eaten or am I going to be okay? here's what I tell my clients, because I tried this on myself. I found if I do this It calms the nervous system. It tells you there's no danger that you're safe. I have found that I can't be mean to myself while doing this. I can't say mean things.

Michele (43:06)

Mm

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

No. Brilliant.

Host: Esther Kane (43:19)

with my hand over it. those voices come up, which they do a lot. The hand goes to the heart and there's a shift. that old tape just stops. then I replace it with something else. one of my little mantras right now is my sensitivity is my superpower.

Michele (43:23)

Yeah.

Mm -hmm. Mm

That's great.

Host: Esther Kane (43:36)

Yeah. And then it's Do you have one that you say to yourself that really helped?

Michele (43:38)

Yeah, I have a little mantra that I use whenever I feel like I'm going back to some of those old patterns the core beliefs are coming up.

This is a very spiritual prayer,

it's angel of God, my guardian dear, with whom God's love commits me here from on this day be at my side to light and guard to rule and guide. it helps me to tap into a more spiritual, support system. where I have to reframe and start to be a little kinder to myself or lower some anxiety.

Host: Esther Kane (44:03)

Yeah, I knew

Michele (44:12)

That comes right into my head now and helps the inner dialogue greatly.

Host: Esther Kane (44:14)

Beautiful. That's so wonderful. My other one is Accepting life on life's terms, and life's terms are different than my terms, Very different than what I'd ordered on the menu.

Michele (44:24)

Mm -hmm. I think another part of being kind to ourselves and having some self -compassion, is you got to be able to say certain things don't matter or, I'm not going to worry about that.

that's unnecessary if it's certain things, you feel like you're doing out of a societal or familial expectation. I hear a lot of women saying, I can't be selfish, like that's not good.

Host: Esther Kane (44:51)

No, no, but they have that confused with self -care. let's call it self -compassion. I'm really into Buddhism What's so wonderful about self -compassion is it's the only sort of doctrine that I've ever studied where self -compassion is at the forefront.

Michele (44:57)

Mm

Yes. Right.

Host: Esther Kane (45:07)

You have to be kind to yourself first before, when you do meta, sending out good vibes to other people, you start with yourself. May I be happy? May I be peaceful? May I be healthy? And may I be free from harm or whatever it is? then you say the other person, it's like that old adage, from the planes.

Michele (45:14)

Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Right.

Host: Esther Kane (45:29)

put on your own oxygen mask before assisting others. I'm sure we're talking to lot of mothers or women that are caregiving or caretaking in some way. You really have to take care of yourself first. And it's not self -witness. It's called self -compassion, self -preservation, self -love. the more love we have for ourselves, the more compassion we have for ourselves, the more

Michele (45:38)

Mm -hmm. Yes.

Mm -hmm.

Right.

Host: Esther Kane (45:51)

we have to give other people. We were taught it all backwards.

Michele (45:53)

yes it is basic. Yeah, like you can, it's okay to spoil ourselves.

Host: Esther Kane (45:57)

you gotta take us home here, Michelle. did we?

Michele (45:59)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the E, engage in self -advocacy and create a plan. we need to have a a roadmap. Again, it has to be flexible as the tides, you come and go, we might have to pivot shifts, can't go to the beach at high tide sometimes. on my website, I created a letter

to a gynecologist, obstetrician, or any sort of healthcare professional. there's one that explains the highly sensitive person traits. But if you are not a highly sensitive person, there's also a symptom list. I think it's important to concretely go through and be sure that you are covering every single symptom that you're feeling and describe it and talk about it.

Host: Esther Kane (46:39)

Yeah.

Michele (46:40)

I am highly sensitive. This is what I know. Highly sensitive women, respond so sensitively to medication. we have to be very careful and have to have a deep discussion. this roadmap that you're going to create is going to have you asserting and advocating for yourself.

Host: Esther Kane (46:44)

Yes. Yes.

Yes.

Michele (46:57)

have a sense of which doctors you think might be helpful for you. maybe you need to start with a menopause specialist, and

Host: Esther Kane (47:01)

Yes.

Michele (47:04)

you might be led to a different doctorate. If you start somewhere where you're having this roadmap made based on what you know about yourself, based on your needs, then I advocating. Yes. You're driving the bus. if you disagree with something that a practitioner says, or a physical therapist or masseuse.

Host: Esther Kane (47:13)

Yeah, advocating for yourself, having agency. driving the bus, you're driving the bus, not someone else.

Michele (47:28)

you gotta speak up and just say, no, that's not working for me. because you only know what's going to make you feel better.

Host: Esther Kane (47:30)

Yeah. Yeah.

so good. It's such good training during perimenopause when you're going through this stuff for the post -menopause years where you are feared and you have a voice and you speak it and use it. what happens in the second half, the menopause is creative centers of your brain are lit up and you have the action projects and things that you want to do that are going to help.

Michele (47:40)

Mm -hmm.

Mm

Mm -hmm.

Host: Esther Kane (47:57)

people in the world and not just, your own family, your own community. You get big with your ideas and excited about stuff. So it's a good practice run, in the perimenopausal years to start using your voice and start getting better at saying, this is what I feel, this is what's happening with me, this is what I want. can you provide it? And if you can, have suggestions of where I might find them.

Michele (48:01)

Mm -hmm. Yes.

Yeah.

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Exactly. you're bringing us to the last one, the S in tides, which is slow down how can we understand those creative, I think people might have to tune into your previous podcast with Susan Wilson to fully understand that what you just described. We actually have a hormone that is telling us, create, a business.

Host: Esther Kane (48:27)

Slow down.

Yes. Yes. Estreal.

Michele (48:42)

Do the thing that you always wanted to do but never did, Estrell. Yeah. slow down a little bit and ease up on the pace of life so that we can be more inward and contemplate, what is it at this point in time that really lights me up?

Host: Esther Kane (48:58)

Yeah.

Michele (48:59)

similarly to what we were saying, you don't have to put out 100 % at every exercise class. allow your body to have a rhythm that goes against the grain of what we're taught is right, which is don't stop. We have to achieve, achieve, achieve.

Host: Esther Kane (49:08)

Yes.

Nice.

Yay. Push yourself until you can't do it anymore.

Michele (49:20)

Right, slow down, have a gentle rhythm, support your healing and support balance in your life because balance is going, yes, adrenal health.

Host: Esther Kane (49:23)

Yeah.

Yeah. The adrenals are very, adrenals are where the action is with estriol, which is the type of rest and postmenopause that you are going to be producing. It's all about the adrenals. we've all heard about adrenal fatigue. it's a real thing. we have to really nurture and nourish our nervous system

Michele (49:34)

Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

-hmm.

Host: Esther Kane (49:46)

if you're also a highly sensitive woman, you're going to need to do even more of that because your nervous system is much more vulnerable to pooping out on you regularly. every morning, I used to just say, okay, this is what I'm going to do for my workout tomorrow.

Michele (49:48)

Mm -hmm.

Right.

-hmm. Mm -hmm.

Yep. Yep.

Mm

Host: Esther Kane (50:03)

And now saying, I have a rough idea of what I might do, but I'm going to see how I feel in the morning because some days I just have a lot of pep and I want to jump around and do a dance routine and other days, yin yoga, something really mild. Listen to the body. The body's why.

Michele (50:08)

Right, right.

Yeah, right, right, right, right. That's, listen to your body. Yes, and the other thing is women were historically the nurturers and we're looking out for our friends elderly parents spouses and children, if we don't slow that pace down where we're kind of that hyper.

caring for other people, but we pull back a little bit. We will have a deeper relationship with ourselves because if you let go of having to take care of everyone else and we are tuning in and doing the tides, we're going to strengthen our relationship with ourselves. And what is better than going into this next phase of life with a deeper connection to self so that we can, manage what's to come.

Host: Esther Kane (50:34)

what we're here.

Yes.

and

Michele (50:55)

Ha ha.

Host: Esther Kane (50:56)

I know when you're in the reproductive years, you probably don't have time even to think about this. But the fact is, as we go through perimenopausal, the menopausal years, the children leave home, the parents pass away or get sick. there's losses, friendships might end, that you've had for a very long time. You grow out of certain things, then you

Michele (51:00)

Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Host: Esther Kane (51:15)

attracted to different energies and different people. It's a huge time of flux and change. So these are all really good ideas. love this TITES acronym.

Michele (51:17)

Yes.

Yeah,

Host: Esther Kane (51:25)

I think this is a great point to wind up this conversation.

We'd also be interested in hearing your thoughts and your experiences during this phase. If you're going through perimenopause, if you've passed menopause, the struggles as well as the triumphs, tools that you've found that could be helpful to other women. I'm trying to build a community menopause.

Michele (51:46)

I'm hoping to create a community a local one or online, because I really think that's important, it's gotta come together. And I agree with you, I'm seeing if I am continuing to use my voice with...

Host: Esther Kane (51:46)

Yeah.

Mm -hmm.

Michele (52:02)

this topic that I would love to see what organically comes back and who would be interested in pulling together and using it as a women's support network.

Host: Esther Kane (52:12)

thank you so much, Michelle, for agreeing to do this. It's been wonderful.

Michele (52:14)

Thank you.

Thanks for having me, I appreciate it.